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  1. #41
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    Hey Zero, check this out! I got myself a 490 amp pack, wait 'till I get this thing to the track, my stock Velineon will really haul now.

    Once I saw the troll pop up, I knew where this thread was going. Of course, your chart didn't contain any accurately rated battery...but aschecks did. Silly Venom, intentionally underrating their batteries to keep those pesky customers away...or wait, was ascheck implying that Hyperion, Checkpoint, and the rest are all liars?

    He won't give up, FYI. He may even get someone else in here to play "yes man"...

    Attacking other members will get you warning points.
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    Last edited by ksb51rl; 01-27-2011 at 11:02 AM.

  2. #42
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    @asheck

    1 Thunder Power Pro Race 5000 40c - 7.13v 200A
    2 Thunder Power Sport Race 8000 22c - 7.13v 176A
    3 Thunder Power Sport Race 5400 25c - 7.12v 135A

    hmmm so i guess this kinda proves your point too.... except 200a vs 176a is no different, and 200a vs 135a is only 1/100v different...(which wouldn't have even shown up on your chart chart).... i wonder what the % error on the meter big squid used was...
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by brentm3 View Post


    Hey Zero, check this out! I got myself a 490 amp pack, wait 'till I get this thing to the track, my stock Velineon will really haul now.
    wow, awesome... i wish i could draw that many amps....
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  4. #44
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    @asheck

    1 Thunder Power Pro Race 5000 40c - 7.13v 200A
    2 Thunder Power Sport Race 8000 22c - 7.13v 176A
    3 Thunder Power Sport Race 5400 25c - 7.12v 135A

    hmmm so i guess this kinda proves your point too.... except 200a vs 176a is no different, and 200a vs 135a is only 1/100v different...(which wouldn't have even shown up on your chart chart).... i wonder what the % error on the meter big squid used was...
    There is so much info missing from this, that a conclusion can not be reached from it. How long was this discharge? At what point did they take this reading, what was the amperage, ECT. If you can share all that, please do. The BIG Squid battery shootout's do not hold all answers Zero, I hope you can discuss this as we are supposed to, I really think having this correct information is important for those who want to know how this stuff works.
    Last edited by asheck; 01-26-2011 at 07:02 PM.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by asheck View Post
    Regardless of what some people think, when comparing accurately rated battery, you will see an increase in performance from a higher amp rated battery. Even if the amperage supplied is much higher then your motor will draw. There is no evidence showing anything otherwise.
    Here is a graph at 35amps, and look at the difference's in voltages in batteries that supply more then 100 amps.

    At 70 amps it becomes more pronounced.


    However, ratings vary much between manufacturers, so the quality of the battery, and who is doing the rating must be taken into account.
    I've been looking over your graphs. Isn't the mah rating the cause for the lower voltage in the Blue lipos and SPC lipo? The Blue lipos and SPC lipo are rated at 5000 mah each, and the other SPC lipo and SMC lipo are rated at 6000 mah and 5400 mah. If you're measuring how much voltage is left in the packs when you're discharging them at an equal amp rate over a set amount of time, then it would make sense that the higher rated mah batteries would have more voltage left at any given amount of time, because it would take longer for their voltage to drop. I don't see what the C rating has much to do with it.

    A better way to demonstrate how the C rating affects a battery's voltage is to compare two equally brand name lipos (to avoid as many variables as possible) with equal mah ratings, but different C ratings, ie a ******* 5000 mah 20 C battery, and a ******* 5000 mah 40 C battery. You could do the same test as above in your graph, and see which battery has the higher voltage over the length of their runs (which should be equal, in theory). If the higher rated C battery has more voltage throughout the entire run, then you'd be correct.

    Edit: Another thing I noticed is that while drawing 35 amps, the batteries last roughly 9-10 minutes. During a regular bashing session for me, the batteries last roughly 20-25 minutes. Does this mean I'm drawing significantly less amps than 35 amps throughout the entire run? If that's the case, then the lesser the amps that you're drawing from a pack, the less difference in performance there seems to be. In other words, if you're just bashing and not racing, then you won't notice a large difference.
    Last edited by Geodude85; 01-26-2011 at 07:16 PM.

  6. #46
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    Isn't the mah rating the cause for the lower voltage in the Blue lipos and SPC lipo?
    Not really, the mah does not play into the voltage, other then the amp rating ( capacity X c rating/ 1000= amp rating), until the very end of the discharge. The pack that holds the highest voltage is the 5400mah battery, until it dumps, and the 6000mah overtakes it. Which is where the capacity comes into it.

    A better way to demonstrate how the C rating affects a battery's voltage is to compare two equally brand name lipos (to avoid as many variables as possible) with equal mah ratings, but different C ratings, ie a ******* 5000 mah 20 C battery, and a ******* 5000 mah 40 C battery.
    I agree. However, this is the best I can provide at the moment that is relevant to this discussion. I intend to do testing on which performs better, getting your amps from C rating or capacity, if I can find a battery that fits here, I will go ahead and test this also.


    Another thing I noticed is that while drawing 35 amps, the batteries last roughly 9-10 minutes. During a regular bashing session for me, the batteries last roughly 20-25 minutes. Does this mean I'm drawing significantly less amps than 35 amps throughout the entire run?
    Yes. Most people will only average 10-15 amps constant.
    If that's the case, then the lesser the amps that you're drawing from a pack, the less difference in performance there seems to be. In other words, if you're just bashing and not racing, then you won't notice a large difference.
    This is true. The lower you are geared, the less noticeable it will be. Going from a 5000mah 20c pack, to a 40c pack if you are geared for 25mph on 2s would be hard to tell a difference. But gear for 50mph and you feel the difference, especially in punch. You could also expect to get more cycles out of a higher amp battery, given identical amp draws. IOW put both the 20c and 40c packs through 100 cycles at a 50amp discharge, and you can expect the 40c battery to be holding more capacity afterwards.


    I'm not trying to convince anyone that they need big amp #'s, I'm just saying that there is a difference, it is noticeable, and it can be beneficial to run a higher amp battery.
    Last edited by asheck; 01-26-2011 at 08:00 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by asheck View Post
    There is so much info missing from this, that a conclusion can not be reached from it. How long was this discharge? At what point did they take this reading, what was the amperage, ECT. If you can share all that, please do. The BIG Squid battery shootout's do not hold all answers Zero, I hope you can discuss this as we are supposed to, I really think having this correct information is important for those who want to know how this stuff works.
    Packs were fully charged at 1C, then discharged at 30 amps continuous to a cut off point of 6.0 total volts by a Competition Electronics Turbo 35. We chose 30 amps because it’s a heavy enough load to create problems in poor packs, and it’s also relatively close to what many drivers will pull on a consistent basis when using brushless motors.

    Doesn't tell me at what time interval but i would be more than willing to assume the readings were taken at the same amount of time on each pack.
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  8. #48
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    I would also like to make the point as to the effect your so called higher amp battery may have on a vehicle. When was the last time you drove at 70% (70amps for my purposes) for 9 straight minutes, if you could do that, you and your vehicle are going to be ..... miles apart... I'm guessing probably out of radio range...

    The reason i point this out is because your not putting into account battery rebound. When you disconnect the load from the battery voltage quickly rebounds so even if your theory was true you would stab the throttle and the voltage would begin to drop, and according to your graph somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds later the voltage between the batteries begins to separate from one another. 5-10 seconds with a vehicle geared for 25mph which you claim it would be unnoticeable at anyway and you've gone between 183 - 366 ft. My track nor is anywhere i drive give me 366 ft. So once i go a significantly shorter distance than that i would be off the throttle and the cells would be rebounding or under a significantly lighter load.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by asheck View Post
    ... but you will feel a difference going to a higher rated battery, regardless of your motor's draw.
    This is undeniably true!

  10. #50
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    http://www.bigsquidrc.com/lipo-batte...der-load-test/ This does a better job showing and describing things, and has graphs. But would like to qoute the article that Zero has been quoting.
    So what does this test show? In short, better batteries will give you higher voltage (thus making your car faster) under load.
    I believe that the graphs I have posted clearly shows that the higher amp rated battery does hold a better voltage under load
    Doesn't tell me at what time interval but i would be more than willing to assume the readings were taken at the same amount of time on each pack.
    It appears like they just average the pack, as here is their graph for the 4s's http://www.bigsquidrc.com/pictures/l.../VenVsTurn.jpg Much harder to draw a conclusion from not having the graphs on the others, for us.

    The reason i point this out is because your not putting into account battery rebound. When you disconnect the load from the battery voltage quickly rebounds so even if your theory was true you would stab the throttle and the voltage would begin to drop, and according to your graph somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds later the voltage between the batteries begins to separate from one another. 5-10 seconds with a vehicle geared for 25mph which you claim it would be unnoticeable at anyway and you've gone between 183 - 366 ft. My track nor is anywhere i drive give me 366 ft. So once i go a significantly shorter distance than that i would be off the throttle and the cells would be rebounding or under a significantly lighter load.
    Yes, but you must also take into account the fact that your battery does not always rebound to 8.4 volts. Each time the rebound get's less and less. So each time the voltage get's lower. A constant amp load does a good job of representing the way a pack will perform. Here's an example of what a graphed eagletree run looks like, even though in reality there in a bunch of spikes, there is still a continous voltage drop. Though this is a test type scenario. http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/show...ght=datalogger

    These things are pretty easy on batteries, the differences can be harder to make obvious, especially under the lighter loads. I did testing in my 2wd pede, only I was just geared for 30ish. An older 4000mah 25c battery lipo pulled 30.8mph, the above tested Blue lipo's pulled 34.4 and a 8000mah 20c SPC pack pulled 35.4. So the extra 60 amp rating only netted me 1mph. Though the punch is more then noticable. However Throw Big Joes on a E-revo, Gear for about 70mph on 4s, and the differences become huge. While all my batteries passed the test, the results varied from my 4000mah 25c batteries pulling 47mph, to my SMC 9000mah 28c packs pulling 62mph . The above listed Blue's pull 52, and the SPC 8000's pull 59 .

    This is undeniably true!
    Apparently not But still my main point .
    Last edited by asheck; 01-26-2011 at 11:37 PM.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakey View Post
    This is undeniably true!
    thanks for joining in yes man, we missed you.... your scientific proof is invaluable for this argument, glad someone finally jumped in and played asheck's wingman though, i think he was starting to get lonely as the only one arguing that all of my data is invalid...



    Quote Originally Posted by asheck View Post
    http://www.bigsquidrc.com/lipo-batte...der-load-test/ This does a better job showing and describing things, and has graphs. But would like to qoute the article that Zero has been quoting. I believe that the graphs I have posted clearly shows that the higher amp rated battery does hold a better voltage under loadIt appears like they just average the pack, as here is their graph for the 4s's http://www.bigsquidrc.com/pictures/l.../VenVsTurn.jpg Much harder to draw a conclusion from not having the graphs on the others, for us.
    Thanks for finding that, i've been looking for it. It shows my point exactly. If you look at the graph they all stay within a relatively close range until they reach the drop off point for a given battery. If you look closely the team checkpoint and the thunder power stay straight in line with each other despite a 30c (189A vs 344A) rating difference between them.... i know you're going to drop the different manufacturer card and i really don't care, i've found 3 data sets although from the same source they all prove my point, you have one data set that covers only two batteries to prove yours. I agree that all manufacturers may not be completely accurate in their ratings but are you going to claim that team checkpoint is going to under rate their battery by 155A or would you like to bash thunder power and say that the 344A rating they have listed is nearly double what it should be?

    Quote Originally Posted by asheck View Post
    Yes, but you must also take into account the fact that your battery does not always rebound to 8.4 volts. Each time the rebound get's less and less. So each time the voltage get's lower. A constant amp load does a good job of representing the way a pack will perform. Here's an example of what a graphed eagletree run looks like, even though in reality there in a bunch of spikes, there is still a continous voltage drop. Though this is a test type scenario. http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/show...ght=datalogger.
    Agreed, the packs will not always rebound to max voltage. If they rebounded to 8.4 the pack would never die, and we'd have a battery that we could put in 1/1 scale cars all around the world and we could all drive to work for free... But both packs will rebound and start a similar graph pattern starting at a lower but equal voltage.


    Quote Originally Posted by asheck View Post
    These things are pretty easy on batteries, the differences can be harder to make obvious, especially under the lighter loads. I did testing in my 2wd pede, only I was just geared for 30ish. An older 4000mah 25c battery lipo pulled 30.8mph, the above tested Blue lipo's pulled 34.4 and a 8000mah 20c SPC pack pulled 35.4. So the extra 60 amp rating only netted me 1mph. Though the punch is more then noticable. However Throw Big Joes on a E-revo, Gear for about 70mph on 4s, and the differences become huge. While all my batteries passed the test, the results varied from my 4000mah 25c batteries pulling 47mph, to my SMC 9000mah 28c packs pulling 62mph . The above listed Blue's pull 52, and the SPC 8000's pull 59 .
    Sorry but your testing doesn't produce any sort of valid data. Your batteries are not the same manufacturer, or of the same age and based on the fact you are doing a speed test not a bench test you also have to consider pack weight (which would be near impossible).... too many variables unable to account for.


    This isn't even worth arguing anymore. I gave sound advice for purchasing a pack, the data i have found supports my theory and your data (although a rather small set) supports your theory. The OP wanted recommendations on buying a new pack, not your theory which only if true would result in squeezing .01v out of a pack on an unrealistic bench test. I'm sorry that your life's mantra doesn't hold true but bigger isn't always better.
    Last edited by zerolatency79; 01-27-2011 at 10:18 AM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by zerolatency79 View Post
    thanks for joining in yes man, we missed you.... your scientific proof is invaluable for this argument, glad someone finally jumped in and played asheck's wingman though, i think he was starting to get lonely as the only one arguing that all of my data is invalid....
    Very rude!
    Quote Originally Posted by zerolatency79 View Post
    This isn't even worth arguing anymore.
    That is the only correct statement you have made in this entire thread.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakey View Post
    Very rude!
    so was joining into a thread that had some intelligent conversation with a 4 word response that provided absolutely nothing.
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