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  1. #1
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    brush vs. brushless

    hey guys i was surfing around the forum and i have been noticing some people that have sigs that talk about brushed motors, i know what brushed motors are but i also know through experience that brushless is much faster more tourque ETC....

    my question is there really any benefit brush motors have over brushless?
    in my experience my vxl system and my 4600kv castle sv2 outperform my titan 12T by a mile

    just some food for thought question i suppose
    thanks!

  2. #2
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    Brushed motors will mostly beat a brushless of the line. I had a 12t, and my friend had a MMP 5700kv, and I smoked him off the start. Long story short, brushed motors have insane torque that most brushless motors don't have. Take the Summit for example, sure, it's slow, but it can climb anything. That is because of the brushed 775, a torque machine. Hope this helps!
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  3. #3
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. pavmentsurfer's Avatar
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    Im going to say thats not true... a brushless motor makes %100 of its torque at 1rpm... they dont have torque "curves" in the same way other motors do.

    There are few benefits to a brushed motor really. Which is why they are going the way of the dodo. Some people like them because they are "tuneable" and have a bit of nostalgia... its similar to why people like an old big block 454 in a hot rod. Its not that its a "better" motor... its just cool to see old technology perform in an impressive way.

    Bandit Transit, its likely the reason your titan beat a brushless rustler off the line is due to the settings on the MMP... not that the titan has more torque.

  4. #4
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    Okay, thanks for clearing it up. I was running the gearing 19/86 so that could by why.
    Slash VXL
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  5. #5
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    okay thanks guys! and pave i thought the nostalgia idea was spot on theres nothing cooler than seeing a fast brush setup !
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  6. #6
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    And if it is torque you need in a brushless motor, a lower kv motor and sensored esc can address it.

    The main advantage brushed still has is water resistance, but that is more related to batteries and esc.

    I would expect product development to close that gap soon.
    ERBE, Summit, Thunder Tiger MT4

  7. #7
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. pavmentsurfer's Avatar
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    Brushless motors are every bit as water resistant as brushed... all electric motors are water resistant.

  8. #8
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. streetdemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavmentsurfer View Post
    Brushless motors are every bit as water resistant as brushed... all electric motors are water resistant.
    Precisely. If you think about it, not having any parts in contact other than bearings, a brushless motor is MORE water resistant. Brushed motors are open and more susceptible to sludge getting inside the can. If and when it does get in though, brushed are easier to clean out.
    Some like R/C's that are fast, others like nitro

  9. #9
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that you don't want to get sensored motors wet though. I've never tried it with mine, but never heard of a good ending with people who have.

  10. #10
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Greatscott's Avatar
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    It also depends on the application of the motor, for fast trucks, brushless is what you want. For scale trucks or rock crawlers, brushed motors are king; it's difficult (or impossible) to find a brushless ESC/motor combo that can match the performance you get out of a brushed motor in a in a crawler.
    Submarine Qualified, Chief Inducted, Navy Retired

  11. #11
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatscott View Post
    It also depends on the application of the motor, for fast trucks, brushless is what you want. For scale trucks or rock crawlers, brushed motors are king; it's difficult (or impossible) to find a brushless ESC/motor combo that can match the performance you get out of a brushed motor in a in a crawler.
    +1. I'm not into crawling, but have noticed that there are some brushless crawler systems out there. It appears that they use esc programming to replicate the traits of a brushed motor. I'm guessing that stall torque is one of the biggest advantages of the brushed 55 turn motors they use?

    It also makes sense as to why all the brushed motor tools were going for dirt cheap, but have recently started becoming more desirable.

  12. #12
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    stall tourque? whats that?
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  13. #13
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    i guess ill add my $.02

    brushed motors have a different power curve and in some situations (mostly on-track) a brushed motor can have the edge. i know a number of guys in our 10.5 classes are running 19 doubles and singles instead since the loose conditions favor a gentler acceleration. you could argue that esc settings and proper slipper adjustment go a long way but its hard to replicate the feel of a brushed motor

    on a side note, i dont need 3 phase nonsense to whoop these punks butts on a track commutators ftw
    Last edited by SRTracer121; 09-29-2011 at 07:37 PM.
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  14. #14
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albino Rustler View Post
    stall tourque? whats that?
    I believe that's the correct term. Basically it's the ability for a motor to hold it's position while not moving. If you notice, a motor like the VXL brushless spins very easy compared to a comparable brushed motor and in most cases will coast a lot longer when letting off of the throttle. I guess you could almost say it's like a compression brake to an extent. Not really a trait we look for in a 2wd racing vehicle, but it's definitely a good thing for crawling.

    Like SRTracer121 said, you can do a lot with esc settings, but it just doesn't give the same feel.

  15. #15
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    Brushless motors better than brushless motors, but are more $$$ and work

    BLDC(BRUSHLESS) motors offer several advantages over brushed DC motors, including more torque per weight, more torque per watt (increased efficiency), increased reliability, reduced noise, longer lifetime (no brush and commutator erosion), elimination of ionizing sparks from the commutator, and overall reduction of electromagnetic interference (EMI). With no windings on the rotor, they are not subjected to centrifugal forces, and because the windings are supported by the housing, they can be cooled by conduction, requiring no airflow inside the motor for cooling. This in turn means that the motor's internals can be entirely enclosed and protected from dirt or other foreign matter.

    One of the disadvantages of the brushless system is that it requires a higher technology speed control..

    With brushed motors speed is directly related to voltage, and can even be controlled mechanically with a potentiameter or MSC

    With brushless no such luck... Speed is controlled through a high speed electronic switch ...
    This is part of the reason you get cogging at low speeds with nonsensored bl motors... You are actually watching the switching.....
    Last edited by USARUSH; 09-30-2011 at 12:50 PM.
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  16. #16
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USARUSH View Post
    Brushless motors better than brushless motors, but are more $$$ and work

    BLDC(BRUSHLESS) motors offer several advantages over brushed DC motors, including more torque per weight, more torque per watt (increased efficiency), increased reliability, reduced noise, longer lifetime (no brush and commutator erosion), elimination of ionizing sparks from the commutator, and overall reduction of electromagnetic interference (EMI). With no windings on the rotor, they are not subjected to centrifugal forces, and because the windings are supported by the housing, they can be cooled by conduction, requiring no airflow inside the motor for cooling. This in turn means that the motor's internals can be entirely enclosed and protected from dirt or other foreign matter.

    One of the disadvantages of the brushless system is that it requires a higher technology speed control..

    With brushed motors speed is directly related to voltage, and can even be controlled mechanically with a potentiameter or MSC

    With brushless no such luck... Speed is controlled through a high speed electronic switch ...
    This is part of the reason you get cogging at low speeds with nonsensored bl motors... You are actually watching the switching.....

    Nice post!



    Just in case anyone is still wondering, I think we all agree that brushless is the way to go. Much like the lipo vs. nimh debate, yes brushed motors can still be comparable to and competitive with brushless. But brushless is obviously king and the way of the future.

    But I gotta admit that I still have fun tuning brushed motors and cutting comms/ replacing brushes. But I would not be so happy about it if I had to do it track side and on a regular basis.

  17. #17
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    very interesting thanks guys
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  18. #18
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    One advantage I always found fun was the ability to play with spring tensions, brush cuts, and brush compounds. Sure you have to true the commutators with an expensive lathe which translates into limited rotor life, but tuning is something special I feel has been traded away for the power and efficiency of the brushless technology. Tuning variables through a computer just isn't the same.

  19. #19
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    +10,000,000,000

    nothing beats a test and tune day for me
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  20. #20
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Emaxx2.0's Avatar
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    How advanced brushless is becoming sensorless cogging is almost nonexistent and sensored has surpass brush in low power operation and control brush has no advantage. In some industrial application brushless motors are the only motors that can be used BC they produced lower frequencies and there is no arcing which can be harmful. I like brush BC of the tuning.
    Simply the best. The beautiful Traxxas SRT and TCP

  21. #21
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    how do you tune? that sounds awesome! im buying a brush truck soon so it would be helpful to know
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  22. #22
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    there are so many things you can do. different brushes, timing, spring strength, etc etc
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  23. #23
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    do you need a sophisticated set of tools? like your motor dyno?
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  24. #24
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    well a lot of tuning can be done by the way the motor spools up, the comm and brushes wear, temperature, brush coloration. etc etc but a dyno can help...

    mostly what a dyno does is give you numbers, you can take those numbers and apply them and use them to see where your at and you can see what affect changing the timing does (for example) or if a different spring may be too hard and is hurting your rpm's. you dont need a dyno to be fast either. best brush guy i know does not use one. never has. does not even know how to use it. he just has a feel for it and knows how to tweak um (if i knew what he did i would tell you lol) that being said hes an amazing driver too and he will whoop anyone with anything that turns left so thats kind of unfair as examples go
    Last edited by SRTracer121; 10-05-2011 at 05:29 PM.
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  25. #25
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    okay that sounds sweet but i mean how can i learn how to tweak a brush motor? besides opening it up and poking stuff with pliers :P
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  26. #26
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    you need to find a copy of this book

    http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=126994

    start asking questions too. between the few of us on here that dabble in comms and brushes i think youd be set
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  27. #27
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    thank you so much!
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  28. #28
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    You guys are sending that poor kid down a long dark and eventually powerless path
    Unless you are an ultra serious racer there is no need to mess with the brushes..
    Its good to know how brushes work and effect your vehicles performance, but brushed motors are cheap and easy to replace so why all the headache..

    While the tuning of your brushed motors will increase the performance and affect its effeciency... Brushed motors will NEVER be as effecient as Brushless. No matter how your brushes are cut...
    Effeciency is important cause
    One of the main limitations of RC cars and trucks are their power supplies ie: batteries SOOOOO
    The less effecient BRUSHED motors ultimatly LIMIT your rc car

    But dont get me wrong brushed motors are effecient where it counts the most.....

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  29. #29
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    hy well when i woop on you on he track with my brushed motor then we'll see. who cares if its better or worse. its more fun

    dont be hating
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  30. #30
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Emaxx2.0's Avatar
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    I find that understanding brush technology helped me understand brushless even easier. Brush is not as big as a headache as most will tell you. Just keep them clean and replace the brushes. A lathe is highly recommended but you're not going to be in the dark without one. Just run it until the comm fly apart. And for racing I would just go brushless as I rather just work more on setup on the car then tuning a motor. For bashing brush is still a blast.
    Simply the best. The beautiful Traxxas SRT and TCP

  31. #31
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    as stated earlier im quite experienced with brushless motors i want more info on brush motors for the tinkering aspect more than trying to make a brush motor go as fast as a brushless motor.

    i know it will likely be a headache at first but so is most things you try for the first time
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  32. #32
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    i forget who said it on this forum i think SRTRACER^ said it but he gave an example of how you dont put in a really old engine in a hot rod to go fast, you do it because its fun to see old technology work
    so this one time I ate a lipo.......

  33. #33
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    doesnt sound like me but i do believe that. ultimate bragging rights on the track when you not only win but win with an old car and old tech
    Vintage TRX collector|Florida Dirt Oval racer

  34. #34
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    i only changed to brushless because brushed motors slow down way to quick because of the magnets. but brushed will still perform well because batteries have gotten better over the years.
    slash revo vxl x4 rally x2 ped 2wd slash vxl rus

  35. #35
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Emaxx2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turok View Post
    i only changed to brushless because brushed motors slow down way to quick because of the magnets. but brushed will still perform well because batteries have gotten better over the years.
    but with the correct gearing and you're watching the temps, magnets shouldn't lose that much strength to make a noticeable difference in power. Heat is what kills magnets. Also not doing maintenance will also affect a motor's proformance and life. Cleaning and changing brushes and really go a long especially getting that brushhood aligned and silky smooth to prevent a hung brush. A comm lathe is a highly recommend tool but for bashing personally I wouldn't even waste the time. I find the quality of brush motors to actually surpass brushless in material but not in design.
    Simply the best. The beautiful Traxxas SRT and TCP

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