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  1. #1
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    Better Brushless Options?

    As I stated in a previous post, I went with a brushed revo for several reasons; the main being that it can easily be slowed down for inside speeds and feathering the throttle is more effective.

    That said, I will likely get a brushless motor/ESC in the spring to swap in and out.

    As a general rule (as everyone will have their own opinions on "best", are there aftermarket brushless setups that are better than the stock brushless setup on the revo? For that matter, does anyone replace the stock brushless setup with aftermarket?

  2. #2
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    I use a Sidewinder 3 with a Castle 4600Kv motor in my 1/16 Slash/Revo. That makes the handling a little less due to the higher COG. But that is the only disadvantage. Never a hot motor or ESC anymore and tons of power.

    In my Mustang I have a Leopard 4420Kv motor and a Leopard ESC. Info can be found here
    Nobody is born with experience

  3. #3
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    +1 On Petertje60
    Going with a 1/10 brushless system is always a good idea.

    One thing I never did get is if you do go with a 1/10 brushless system, wouldn't you have to get batteries that are rated for the current draw? Simply meaning if I use my 2s 2200mah traxxas lipos in parallel that's still only 110 amps of power where as both my slash 4x4's have puffed 5800mah traxxas lipo's simply because they couldn't support the amp draw so wouldn't a 1/10 brushless in the merv do the same thing?

    Hopefully someone will answer my question
    Have Fun and Drive Recklessly

  4. #4
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    Amp draw is based on the amount of"work" the motor does. A larger motor won't neccicarily draw more current. The stock brushless motor is 4000kv. If you changed only the motor, and put in a 1/10 4000kv motor, amp draw would be pretty close to the same.

    As for motor, the stock brushless motor is really good. That with a sidewinder ESC is a good setup. Going with a 1/10 motor will add weight at the worst possible place, raising your CG, on a truck that already clips easily.
    Dacaur

  5. #5
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    You never need to deliver more power than your car can put down on the road. And that is limited. Adding more power ability will not say your car will use it. And that is certainly the case with a SW3/4600 combo.

    Bear in mind that during acceleration (or at very high top speeds) your car consumes the highest amount of power. A more able power plant will probably consume more than the stock system in those cases.

    Looking at the 110A on 2S. That is over 800W. You will have a hard time consuming that amount of power in a 1/16 scale car. I saw rare spikes of around 800W in data logs of a run with a (too) tall gearing in high grass.
    Nobody is born with experience

  6. #6
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    Is there a good motor/ESC combo that drops in to the stock brushed setup?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfiesig View Post
    Is there a good motor/ESC combo that drops in to the stock brushed setup?
    Castle 1406 series combos are a drop in. In general any 36mm can motor which is not too long fits.
    Nobody is born with experience

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petertje60 View Post
    Castle 1406 series combos are a drop in. In general any 36mm can motor which is not too long fits.
    Sweet. Will the ESC is comes with fit properly as well?

  9. #9
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfiesig View Post
    Sweet. Will the ESC is comes with fit properly as well?
    There are quite some threads that show how ţo mount a Sidewinder. So that is a yes.
    Nobody is born with experience

  10. #10
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    I see they range from 4600kv to 7700kv. What should I be looking for?

    And would this work?

    https://www.amazon.ca/Castle-Creatio.../dp/B00AQYMNE6

  11. #11
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    And can I still run stock nimh batteries? I'm not looking for speed, just brushless reliability.

    Wouldn't even be asking only my new Spektrum receiver can trim the throttle so I can drive at inside speeds.

  12. #12
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    I would get the 4600Kv.
    Using NiMH with this kind of motors might give a lot of stress on the batteries. With a gentle throttle finger it might work, but I would keep a sharp eye on the battery temps.
    Nobody is born with experience

  13. #13
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    Hmmm, so for brushless motors lipos is pretty much a must?

  14. #14
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    No, the stock NIMH will be fine as long as you don't overgear. Get the 4600kv combo, use the pinion off your brushed motor, and your NIMH packs will work great.
    That said, lipo is a worthwhile upgrade....
    Dacaur

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacaur View Post
    No, the stock NIMH will be fine as long as you don't overgear. Get the 4600kv combo, use the pinion off your brushed motor, and your NIMH packs will work great.
    That said, lipo is a worthwhile upgrade....
    Awesome, thanks! I bought 3 extra NIMH packs when I got the revo so I could have 2 sets of 2. I'd love to be able to stick with them if I could. Besides extra power (which I don't want) is there any other benefit of going lipo?

    I don't plan on changing the stock gearing unless it's necessary.

    As for the combo, Amazon.ca has the 5700kv on sale and Prime. Is it that much better to get the 4600? It would cost more and take longer to get the 4600 here, but I'm willing to do that if the 5700 is not a good solution.

  16. #16
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    I would go with the 4600. The 5700 will give you shorter runtimes. The number is the KV on the motor, KV= RPM per volt. Higher KV motors will give you a higher top speed, but , all else being equal, will use more power from your batteries at all speeds vs a lower kv motor, which means more heat and shorter runtimes. You could in theory gear down to get the same top speed and power consumption from the higher KV motor, but on the mini revo you cant gear down enough due to being unable to fit the gearing.
    It would be worth it to wait for the 4600kv IMO.

    In my opinion, the biggest advantage to lipo is extra runtime. You will probably gey 15-20 min with your two nimh packs in parallel. With a pair of 2000-2200mah 2 cell lipos in parallel, 45 min runtimes are routine...
    Dacaur

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacaur View Post
    I would go with the 4600. The 5700 will give you shorter runtimes. The number is the KV on the motor, KV= RPM per volt. Higher KV motors will give you a higher top speed, but , all else being equal, will use more power from your batteries at all speeds vs a lower kv motor, which means more heat and shorter runtimes. You could in theory gear down to get the same top speed and power consumption from the higher KV motor, but on the mini revo you cant gear down enough due to being unable to fit the gearing.
    It would be worth it to wait for the 4600kv IMO.

    In my opinion, the biggest advantage to lipo is extra runtime. You will probably gey 15-20 min with your two nimh packs in parallel. With a pair of 2000-2200mah 2 cell lipos in parallel, 45 min runtimes are routine...
    Ok, I'll go with the 4600.

    Anything else I need to make it fit/work?

  18. #18
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    A higher Kv motor does not necessarily consume more power at same speeds. Lower Kv motors need a higher voltage to get to the same rpm. With the same amount of energy, the voltage increases and the current decreases. Lost energy due to resistance in electrical components increases when current increases.

    So the higher energy consumption is caused by higher currents, not by Kv rates directly.
    Nobody is born with experience

  19. #19
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    You might want to look at running your NiMH in parallel for a 1/10 brushless combo.

    Traxxas also mention you must run NiMH in parallel when running 28/50 gearing on a VXL.

    Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petertje60 View Post
    A higher Kv motor does not necessarily consume more power at same speeds. Lower Kv motors need a higher voltage to get to the same rpm. With the same amount of energy, the voltage increases and the current decreases. Lost energy due to resistance in electrical components increases when current increases.

    So the higher energy consumption is caused by higher currents, not by Kv rates directly.
    Ok, so new to the RC world I'm a little confused. Are you saying the 5700k is just as good for merv as the 4600k?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllusionX View Post
    You might want to look at running your NiMH in parallel for a 1/10 brushless combo.

    Traxxas also mention you must run NiMH in parallel when running 28/50 gearing on a VXL.

    Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
    Doesn't running in parallel simply increase run time?

  22. #22
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfiesig View Post
    Ok, so new to the RC world I'm a little confused. Are you saying the 5700k is just as good for merv as the 4600k?
    Main difference between the 4600 and the 5700 is that the 5700 makes around a 1/4 more rpm at the same voltage.
    So with everything te same, your car goes theoretically 1/4 faster with the 5700.

    In real life the 4600 has a little less internal resistance and is slightly more efficient. When you adjust the gearing accordingly, the 4600 and 5700 will give no difference in top speed that you will notice.

    Because you are limited with gearing, the offer of different Kv ratings comes in handy.
    The Velineon 380 motor is rated for 4000Kv, so with the 4600 you make a good step up.
    Nobody is born with experience

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petertje60 View Post
    Main difference between the 4600 and the 5700 is that the 5700 makes around a 1/4 more rpm at the same voltage.
    So with everything te same, your car goes theoretically 1/4 faster with the 5700.

    In real life the 4600 has a little less internal resistance and is slightly more efficient. When you adjust the gearing accordingly, the 4600 and 5700 will give no difference in top speed that you will notice.

    Because you are limited with gearing, the offer of different Kv ratings comes in handy.
    The Velineon 380 motor is rated for 4000Kv, so with the 4600 you make a good step up.
    Got it.

    And the brushless will work well slowed down with throttle trim? I can slow my Titan down to a crawl speed if required. It sure if slower speeds are harmful to a brushless motor.

    I want to run inside and out.

  24. #24
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    Slow speeds are not harmful. You might experience cogging (stuttering at take off), but that can be solved with a good lipo.
    Nobody is born with experience

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petertje60 View Post
    Slow speeds are not harmful. You might experience cogging (stuttering at take off), but that can be solved with a good lipo.
    Good to hear. Would you say at reduced speeds brushless is still better than brushed (reliability, etc)? I recall reading somewhere that brushed is "smoother" at low speeds...

    Oh, and is this the setup you recommend (I've seen different 4600kv Castle motors)?

    https://www.amazon.ca/Castle-Creatio...e+Sidewinder+3

    Thanks again!

  26. #26
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    That is the right combo.

    Brushed might be smoother on slow speeds, but not when you take a sensored brushless system. Only problem is that most ESCs that can handle sensored motors do not fit very easy under the hood of the Merv.

    Brushed motors wear faster that brushless. Reason is simple: the brushes wear out.
    Nobody is born with experience

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petertje60 View Post
    That is the right combo.

    Brushed might be smoother on slow speeds, but not when you take a sensored brushless system. Only problem is that most ESCs that can handle sensored motors do not fit very easy under the hood of the Merv.

    Brushed motors wear faster that brushless. Reason is simple: the brushes wear out.
    Ok, so the Sidewinder/4600kv combo is not sensored?

  28. #28
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfiesig View Post
    Ok, so the Sidewinder/4600kv combo is not sensored?
    No. You need a Mamba X. But that is quite large for the Merv.
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  29. #29
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    OK. So bottom line is the Sidewinder/4600kv Castle combo is the best overall solution.

  30. #30
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    Considering availability, price, and the fact that the Traxxas ESC is the part with the questionable name whereas the Traxxas brushless motor has a good name, which of the two options below would you go with? The combo or Sidewinder ESC plus Velineon 380?

    Option 1 - Castle combo

    https://www.amazon.ca/Castle-Creatio...dewinder+3+esc


    Option 2 - Mixed combo

    Velineon 380
    https://www.amazon.ca/Traxxas-3371-V...L+Velineon+380

    Sidewinder 3
    https://www.amazon.ca/Castle-Creatio...dewinder+3+esc

  31. #31
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    I would personally go with the mixed combo. The smaller 380 motor is less weight and gives the truck a lower center of gravity. Unless you are all about top speed, you will never have a problem with it.
    If you were going to run 3 cell packs and go for top speed, the castle motor would definetly be the way to go.

    But, since your truck is brushed, assuming it has the Titan 550 in it now, you would need $20 worth of parts to go with the VXL 380 motor, while the 1/10 castle motor is a direct bolt in, so that's something to consider.

    Running two batteries in parallel does increase runtime, but it doesn't "only" increase runtime. It also makes more power (amps, watts) available to the motor, making for a bit of a speed boost because the voltage doesn't drop as much and because the batteries share the load, they will run cooler. The motor will also run cooler for a given speed.
    Dacaur

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petertje60 View Post
    A higher Kv motor does not necessarily consume more power at same speeds. Lower Kv motors need a higher voltage to get to the same rpm. With the same amount of energy, the voltage increases and the current decreases. Lost energy due to resistance in electrical components increases when current increases.

    So the higher energy consumption is caused by higher currents, not by Kv rates directly.
    Changing nothing but the motor kV, the higher kV motor will draw more amps for a given vehicle speed and/or acceleration rate.
    Obviously when you change gearing you can negate that with lower gearing on the higher kV motor, but then of course you lose some of the speed advantage....
    But, note I did say "all else being equal", I.E. , when the only thing that changed is the kV, the lower kV motor will draw less amps for a given speed/acceleration rate. Top speed will of course be lower, but since the OP has expressed top speed isn't important, that doesn't matter.
    Dacaur

  33. #33
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    In an interesting turn of events, my local hobby store actually has the Castle combo in stock; for cheaper than I can find it on amazon!

  34. #34
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacaur View Post
    Changing nothing but the motor kV, the higher kV motor will draw more amps for a given vehicle speed and/or acceleration rate.
    Obviously when you change gearing you can negate that with lower gearing on the higher kV motor, but then of course you lose some of the speed advantage....
    But, note I did say "all else being equal", I.E. , when the only thing that changed is the kV, the lower kV motor will draw less amps for a given speed/acceleration rate. Top speed will of course be lower, but since the OP has expressed top speed isn't important, that doesn't matter.
    At higher voltage I agree that the lower Kv motor consumes less amps, but when the voltage is part "all else being equal", I don't agree.
    When looking at motor series like the 1406, internal resistance of the lower Kv motors is normally higher than that of the higher Kv motors. So at a constant power consumption (at same voltage/current usage), the higher Kv will even run cooler.

    Anyhow. Enough to consider. Lol.

    Added up:
    Sidewinder 3 + 1406 - 4600Kv is a nice "drop in" choice.
    Buying motor mount parts and a 380 can motor is a nice option to consider.
    Nobody is born with experience

  35. #35
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    Regarding higher COG, would the Castle not be the same as the stock Titan 550?

  36. #36
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    If they weighed they same yes, but the castle motor is a few ounces heavier.
    Dacaur

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacaur View Post
    If they weighed they same yes, but the castle motor is a few ounces heavier.
    Ah, got it.

    Probably gonna pull the trigger today. Just have to decide between the Castle combo or a Sidewinder with the Velineon.

    The Castle combo would be considerably cheaper.

  38. #38
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Petertje60's Avatar
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    I don't remember what the weight of the Titan 12T is, but I think it's definitely heavier than the 1406 motors.
    Nobody is born with experience

  39. #39
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    I'm leaning towards the Castle Combo.

    Once fully built, my truck will have a good number of upgrades, adding weight will be:

    VG Racing roll cage
    T-bone 3-piece brace

    Will the added weight/high center of gravity of the Castle 4600kv motor make that much of a difference in handling compared to the Velineon?

    This is a great thread, btw. I'm sure a number of people are benefiting from it.

  40. #40
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    Oh, and Trenchers on Desperados; bigger tire but wider offset.

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