Hobby Wing Max 6 - What do you lose?

[xmaxxsol]

Hobby Wing Max 6 for 8x X-Maxx -

We know what we gain when performing this mod but what do you lose when you swap out the stock ESC for this? Traxxas telemetry still work? Can you still do training mode, self-righting, etc.?

[Magnus001]

I haven't tried the self-righting feature, but everything else still works, including training mode.

[johnksvo@gmail.com]

Self righting works, not all that well but I didn't even know how to use it before I switched to a max 6. Only thing I lost was a headache and the random braking off throttle at lower speeds.

[xmaxxsol]

Can anybody comment on this below? This is a quote I grabbed from an online review of the Max 6 when used on the X-Maxx:

"Do note you will need to replace your receiver or you "Will Not" get Full power from the MAX6 V3 due to Traxxas receiver and temp sensor set up."

[johnksvo@gmail.com]

Where is that stated?

[MartyB]

Someone might want to correct me on this, but I think you lose the motor thermal shutdown (you still have the thermal shutdown on the Max6, but not on the motor).

[TimoJ]

You will get full power with Traxxas radio/receiver. You just need to do calibration procedure as stated in MAX6's manual. 100% power is easily verified = green LED is on at 100% power.

You will lose training mode, that is an ESC feature and it's activated with Traxxas ESC's button so there is no way to activate it with MAX6. You can of course use Bluetooth module and adjust transmitter throttle response to get a similar power reduction.

Motor temperature is still monitored, that is a separate sensor that is inside the motor heatsink and goes to the radio receiver so changing to MAX6 has no effect to it. I have not verified, but I think shutdown should still work because of this separate sensor and it's direct link to receiver.

[Flux Capacitor]

According to the chart right off the Hobbywing site in the specifications section, it has disabled as an only option for motor thermal protection:

[TimoJ]

According to the chart right off the Hobbywing site in the specifications section, it has disabled as an only option for motor thermal protection

It's disabled because there is no sensor input on the MAX6. But that is also the case with the stock ESC, sensor is wired to the receiver. If X-Maxx had a sensored motor (and suitable ESC), that port would also send motor temp to the ESC.

[Flux Capacitor]

It's disabled because there is no sensor input on the MAX6. But that is also the case with the stock ESC, sensor is wired to the receiver. If X-Maxx had a sensored motor (and suitable ESC), that port would also send motor temp to the ESC.

Yes the sensor is wired to the Rx and the Rx is wired to the ESC. Now if the ESC can't support the function, I don't think it would matter if it were wired directly to the ESC. Look closely at the other disabled function in the chart. Even though low voltage cutoff has the disabled feature, other options are selectable. Low voltage detection isn't through the Rx, it is detected by the ESC. Now if low voltage detection was through the RX, it would still have to hook to the ESC. It is just a matter of whether the ESC supports the function, not how it is hooked up.

[TimoJ]

Yes the sensor is wired to the Rx and the Rx is wired to the ESC. Now if the ESC can't support the function, I don't think it would matter if it were wired directly to the ESC. Look closely at the other disabled function in the chart. Even though low voltage cutoff has the disabled feature, other options are selectable. Low voltage detection isn't through the Rx, it is detected by the ESC. Now if low voltage detection was through the RX, it would still have to hook to the ESC. It is just a matter of whether the ESC supports the function, not how it is hooked up.

I still think this is only a receiver function: it gets too high temp reading from the sensor and sets output to ESC to the neutral position i.e. ESC will not send voltage to the motor. Doesn't this also happen if you unplug the temp sensor from the receiver? Low voltage detection is a completely different issue.

[Flux Capacitor]

I still think this is only a receiver function: it gets too high temp reading from the sensor and sets output to ESC to the neutral position i.e. ESC will not send voltage to the motor. Doesn't this also happen if you unplug the temp sensor from the receiver? Low voltage detection is a completely different issue.

I'm just saying that going by the chart on their site, motor thermal protection has no other option than disabled. There should be choices there like 150° cutoff and 140° cutoff - maybe the user has to program them in; but there should at least be presets available, and I don't see any in that chart. I steered away from getting a max6 because it was unclear what you could program and what you couldn't program. With Castle, I definitely can set my drag brake higher than 16%. It looks very limited in what you can do with a max6 compared to a Castle ESC.

[TimoJ]

I'm just saying that going by the chart on their site, motor thermal protection has no other option than disabled. There should be choices there like 150° cutoff and 140° cutoff - maybe the user has to program them in; but there should at least be presets available. I steered away from getting a max6 because it was unclear what you could program and what you couldn't program. With Castle, I definitely can set my drag brake higher than 16%. It looks very limited in what you can do with a max6 compared to a Castle ESC.

I'll try to do some tests with this temp cutoff stuff if/when I have time. If the receiver does it, then it's some Traxxas pre-programmed temp value.

And yes, MAX6 settings etc. are very limited when compared to Castle ESC, I also have Summit with Mamba Monster X and I sure miss some of the settings and features it offers via Castle Link. Too bad they don't offer waterproof ESC suitable for X-Maxx.

But why would you want to set drag brake at all? It's not a good thing to have when you jump, car nosedives easily.

[Flux Capacitor]

But why would you want to set drag brake at all? It's not a good thing to have when you jump, car nosedives easily.

Understood, but when I'm on my oval flat track after a full throttle straight, drag brake is my next best friend to TSM and True-Track.

Also, it would not be a sensor preset value that we are interested in, it would be a programmable feature value within the ESC that we are trying to find out, which is not Traxxas. I don't think you can program it and you said you don't know yet in a round about way, so we'll see what you find out.

This thread is about what is lost, and if my hunch is correct, MartyB might just know something we don't yet.

[TimoJ]

Today I did some tests and at 120C/248F receiver cuts motor output to low power, like 1/5 power at full throttle. And at about 130c/266F motor is completely shut down. At that 120C/248F point receiver LED starts to blink red.

And this is with MAX6 ESC. So looks like this works just like I thought, receiver controls this and motor thermal protection is working fine with MAX6.

I used a variable resistor in place of the sensor and adjusted it's value and monitored what temperature Traxxas Link was showing. Removing the sensor does not cut/reduce power, that (open circuit) makes the system think temperature is low. High temp values are somewhere at 10-22Kohm range (thus having water in the sensor connector or wiring makes the system think motor is overheating and shuts it down).

[Flux Capacitor]

Today I did some tests and at 120C/248F receiver cuts motor output to low power, like 1/5 power at full throttle. And at about 130c/266F motor is completely shut down. At that 120C/248F point receiver LED starts to blink red.
And this is with MAX6 ESC. So looks like this works just like I thought, receiver controls this and motor thermal protection is working fine with MAX6.

I used a variable resistor in place of the sensor and adjusted it's value and monitored what temperature Traxxas Link was showing. Removing the sensor does not cut/reduce power, that (open circuit) makes the system think temperature is low. High temp values are somethere at 10-22Kohm range (thus having water in the sensor connector or wiring makes the system think motor is overheating and shuts it down).

Thanks for doing the testing. That takes time and patience and is always appreciated because you are helping more than just one person.

I was thinking this over, and I see where you are coming from about the receiver accepting the thermal shut down protection for the motor. Since this is through the receiver, the feature should be disabled in the ESC, or there would be conflicting issues if one could select a cutoff temperature in the ESC programming. It is probably a good thing it is disabled by default and furthermore; it is even better if it cannot be changed in the ESC.

[DMO-79]

Excellent experiment! I had been very curious about the exact function of the motor temp sensor. Does anyone know if the factory ESC has its own thermal sensor, I would assume it does.

My question is: if the ESC blinks the TEMP Led, does that indicate ESC overheated or motor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TimoJ]

Does anyone know if the factory ESC has its own thermal sensor, I would assume it does.
My question is: if the ESC blinks the TEMP Led, does that indicate ESC overheated or motor?

Factory ESC has it's own sensor (like MAX6). Blinking or continuous temp LED on the ESC indicates overheated ESC (or ESC gone bad...). Just read the manual, it says to check ESC fan/cooling, it says nothing about motor.

[MartyB]

Thank you TimoJ and Flux Capacitor for clearing this up. I had made the assumption that the motor thermal shutdown didn't work because of the "disabled only" option on the Max6 and because my X-Maxx had never had a motor thermal shutdown since I got the Max6 - I guess my cooling fan has been doing it's job! Your effort in answering this question is very much appreciated.

[xmaxxsol]

Thanks all for the info! Another question. HobbyWing esc or Castle? Which Castle esc is equivalent to the Max6 and would you go HW or Castle?

[scoobied77]

Today I did some tests and at 120C/248F receiver cuts motor output to low power, like 1/5 power at full throttle. And at about 130c/266F motor is completely shut down. At that 120C/248F point receiver LED starts to blink red.

And this is with MAX6 ESC. So looks like this works just like I thought, receiver controls this and motor thermal protection is working fine with MAX6.

I used a variable resistor in place of the sensor and adjusted it's value and monitored what temperature Traxxas Link was showing. Removing the sensor does not cut/reduce power, that (open circuit) makes the system think temperature is low. High temp values are somewhere at 10-22Kohm range (thus having water in the sensor connector or wiring makes the system think motor is overheating and shuts it down).

I don't see why they put the limit of 248F for motor thermal shut down so high???

I like to keep my motor temp limit at 180F.

[rag6]

Sounds more like fire insurance rather than thermal protection....

[Flux Capacitor]

Thank you TimoJ and Flux Capacitor for clearing this up. I had made the assumption that the motor thermal shutdown didn't work because of the "disabled only" option on the Max6 and because my X-Maxx had never had a motor thermal shutdown since I got the Max6 - I guess my cooling fan has been doing it's job! Your effort in answering this question is very much appreciated.

TimoJ deserves the credit on this one; I was just questioning the functionality of the setting in the ESC.

I don't see why they put the limit of 248F for motor thermal shut down so high???

I like to keep my motor temp limit at 180F.

Agreed. Anything higher than 180°F for an extended period of time is wrecking havoc on the internals of the motor.

Thanks all for the info! Another question. HobbyWing esc or Castle? Which Castle esc is equivalent to the Max6 and would you go HW or Castle?

It is a trade-off, because like TimoJ brought to our attention; there isn't a suitable waterproof ESC from Castle for the X-Maxx up to or in the 8S category. In other words, you could get the Castle Mamba XL X Extreme 1:5 Scale ESC but it isn't waterproof; but is up to the 8S task. The Max6 is waterproof and capable of 8S, but you lose a lot of programmability that is crucial to preserving motor life in my most humble opinion.

Sounds more like fire insurance rather than thermal protection....

No doubt; as I stated, that is why I like the variable of being able to manually set a cutoff limit in the ESC and not worry about a Rx preset or override from the ESC that is preset as well.

[TimoJ]

If the original sensor is 100Kohm NTC thermistor, changing it to 68Kohm would make the thermal protection kick in at a lower temperature. But then Traxxas link would display too high temperature values and you would have to do tests and measurements what the actual temperature is and where cutoff works etc. Not sure if thermistor spec sheets offer enough data, maybe they do.

[billyg900]

so there is conflicting information, will i lose training mode if i change out to a hobbywing ESC?

i have the blue tooth radio and app.

[Magnus001]

so there is conflicting information, will i lose training mode if i change out to a hobbywing ESC?

i have the blue tooth radio and app.

I have the Max 5, & still have training mode.

[pontiacHP]

I have the Max 5, & still have training mode.

I don’t get how it is possible? You have to set up training mode through the ESC?

[rag6]

Cant you just set throttle endpoints to 50% on the radio?

[Magnus001]

You set training mode through the app. I couldn't tell you the technical aspect of what it does. Honestly, when you use training mode, it really just feels like you have to pull the trigger alot further before the truck moves. That, of course, means you don't get 100% full throttle. So I dunno... Maybe it does it through the receiver, & not the ESC?

[billyg900]

Installed the max5 this weekend and training mode still worked at least for forward but it wont go reverse unless its set to 30 percent or more. Ill just use the throttle setting under 'channel setup' when my kids want to use it.

another thing i noticed that i wasn't getting green led at full throttle even after setting endpoints again, so what I did was lower the throttle to 80% in 'channel setup' then re sync the endpoints then put throttle back to 100% now i get full throttle green led on max5.

[Dmg1ndun]

Hobby Wing Max 6 for 8x X-Maxx -

We know what we gain when performing this mod but what do you lose when you swap out the stock ESC for this? Traxxas telemetry still work? Can you still do training mode, self-righting, etc.?

I know after swapping my bad 8s esc with a max6 thermal shut down kicks in right about the same time your 8s motor seizes or burns up.